Baptists are awesome…
By luke g. on Apr 26, 2009 in Journal
So I’m down here in Conway, AR, getting ready to preach for the Sunday morning worship gathering at Conway Celebration Church. On Friday and Saturday CCC had their annual family and marriage conference and I was blessed and honored to be a part of it. I taught on the women and the glory of God.
But in about an hour I’m going to be teaching on the subjects of (a) being filled with the Spirit, (b) spiritual gifts, and (c) the gift of prophecy. Wow. I realize that there are many, many Baptists who are Continuationists (spiritual gifts are for today) but it still trips me out because most of the Baptists I’ve always known have been hardcore Cessationists (spiritual gifts were for apostolic age only). So in the past year I have spoken in more churches and had more opportunities that have gone against what I ever considered possible in a mighty, mighty way! I’m constantly reminded of how God is moving in my life. Praise Him!
Plus, deep down, I’m a Baptist. Yes, credo-baptism by immersion following the Trinitarian model. I also believe in local church autonomy and congregational government through the plurality of elders (pastors, bishops, overseers). I love Baptists.
Anyway, I’m praying that the Holy Spirit would annoint me and that I would be able to properly communicate God’s Word to these people regarding some of the things on my heart. Yes, I can’t wait! Thanks for your prayers!
Hey, Luke! Glad to see you in a baptist church! How did it go? Was it a southern baptist or general conference? Come to TX!
Erin | Apr 28, 2009 | Reply
Hey Luke. Aren’t you like me and believe in a continuing Apostlate? If there are indeed apostles today like I believe, then wouldn’t that be the end of church autonomy, independency, and congregational government? I certainly think so. What are your thoughts?
Christian Edmiston
Christian Edmiston | Apr 28, 2009 | Reply
Erin, CCC is a souther baptist congregation. They are awesome.
Christian, how are you? Hope all is well.
I loosely would hold to a continuation of the “office” of Apostle, but very loosely. I find several types of apostles in the NT, so I’d obviously contend that in some form apostles still exist.
But, I know of far more men who I’d consider “apostolic” than outright apostles. In fact, the only person I can think of that functioned in that role would be John Wimber. I’m sure we could find others throughout history who functioned in that same way, but Wimber is the only person that I can personally attest to.
That being said, as you’ll note, my “definition” of Congregational is a bit different than what other folks see as being Congregational (i.e., through the plurality of Pastors). What’s somewhat fascinating and kind of funny is that in Acts 15 we find an example of all the major forms of church government present
So, my thoughts are that I think it is very wise for autonomous congregations to develop and maintain relationships with other autonomous congregations in order to share resources and to have accountability. I also have no problem with congregations having relationships with “apostolic” men who would provide oversight and advice… but I’d be very careful in approaching that type of situation as it can either be (a) excellent or (b) very damaging.
That’s my initial thoughts. Perhaps you can provide some more clarification to your question if I missed something.
While I’m here, I’d like to also state, for the record, that I believe congregations should do everything they can to avoid having an independent and individualistic attitude towards others.
While you are responding, could you share your thoughts on modern day apostles? Who are they, in your opinion? I’m sure you’d agree on Wimber, but what about Bert Waggoner?
Somewhat related – can modern day Apostles hold to false doctrine?
I sense a rather good discussion coming! Anyone else?
luke g. | Apr 28, 2009 | Reply
Hey, both of you… for the cessationists in the crowd, throw in a little more detail about your views of apostleship, as well, to help understand all of the views!
For the record, I tend to be fairly common to the cessationist view of things, where I define an apostle as someone chosen directly by Jesus that witnessed the resurrected Christ and that showed “signs, wonders and miracles” to verify their role as noted in 2 Cor 12:12. While I view it as a spiritual gift listed in Ephesians 4:11, I note that Revelation 21:14 lists only twelve apostles, so I tend to interpret apostleship as limited to a completing a specific purpose in God’s timing. (yes, I struggle with Matthias and Paul added to the Eleven makes 13, not 12 — don’t have a good answer on that yet) That view also makes the issue of apostolic succession pretty simple, as well.
So, Luke, I’m intrigued by your comments that the office of apostle “loosely” continues and that you view some men as “apostolic” without being outright apostles. Let me toss out three groups of questions, then, to continue the discussion: (1) How do you define an apostle? What types are listed in scripture? Apostolic succession? (2) How is the “office of apostle” differ from a person who is an apostle? What did you mean by “apostolic without being an apostle”? ( Do you mean that they are acting in a particular way, but without this being the gift listed in Eph 4:11? Or something else?) (3) What authority do apostles hold? What abilities? How do we validate those claiming the gift (i.e. Rev 2:2)?
MichaelZ | Apr 28, 2009 | Reply
i believe there can still be apostles. i just haven’t met one yet.
Tony | Apr 29, 2009 | Reply